Thank you for the article SD Voice. John Taylor Gatto, former longtime teacher from NYC, (d. 2018) wrote volumes about why kids are checked out (his Ch. 13 titled The Empty Child in The Underground History of American Public Education should be required reading) but he eventually came to reject all of it and wrote many books and gave lectures all over the country on why compulsory education fits more statist & corporate interests, not those of parents or community. Here's some of his books for those interested: A Different Kind of Teacher, The Exhausted School, Dumbing Us Down, Weapons of Mass Instruction, and The Underground History of American Education.
I appreciate your input, and information. I've actually read two of J.T.G.'s books, and he offered some interesting insight. If you're familiar with FOIA, or if you're interested in using FOIA, you might be alarmed by what you'll find. Based on the information I've received, and there's a lot, it is clear that public schools aren't using the taxpayer funded income in a logical manner. When you filter through Standardized Test results, for individual, and/or district schools, it often doesn't make sense. When a specific school produces low scores in one, or more, academic field, logic should dictate that those schools would, or should, use a calculable percentage of their funding, for the following year, in ways that could increase their scores. In most cases, that's not what I've found. In many cases, I found that there was no additional funds, or redirected funds, that went towards anything that would raise those scores. If a school scores low on math, for example, why would they decide to increase funds towards things like art, for example, instead of math. When you look at breakdowns of allocations, and see that pattern, more times than not, it starts to become clear. I'm all for things like art, music, or many other non-academic studies, but not at the expense of academics. While some may go on to have successful careers in things like art, or music, most don't, or won't. There's an old saying, "The devil is in the details.". And no. I'm not making a religious reference. I'm just using an old saying to point out that there's a problem with how funds are being allocated without logic.
Thank you for the information Milo. Not too surprised. I spent my career there working at all levels, including the Dept of Ed in Pierre in early 90s; it's a system that probably is designed, by virtue of all the regulatory & political demands upon it - to ultimately fail, unfortunately. There may be some bright spots here and there, incl the sports and extra curricula that keeps them coming thru the door, but overall it's a sinking ship. It's the system I'm talking about and sometimes it gets conflated to "but my school..." Parents & Community have to rescue it from the professional class like they are doing currently in every other area of life as well. I'm still not sure what RFK is all about. I want to be hopeful. But his comment still holds that "the only thing standing between a child and a corrupt government is a parent". More and more parents are seeing the light and are in a rescue operation as they awaken to the research - and it's readily available.
It seems like another case of government spending that creates even more government spending. My question is simple. Why can't the seemingly bottomless money pit that is our current failing education system, be converted into a system that allows children to be home schooled?? Perhaps, instead of the taxation strangle hold on parents, which is a big reason why both parents need to work full time jobs, we could reduce taxation by wasting less tax dollars on a clearly failing system. If my home were on fire, but my only means of putting out that fire was a small trickle of water, and a tiny sewing thimble, at what point should I abandon the possibility of extinguishing the blazing inferno?? Using congressional logic, I should quickly order more thimbles, and hope that they arrive before the fire has completely consumed my home. Lol.
I think we'll get there. Florida and a few other states are now looking at eliminating the portion of property taxes (that taxation strangle hold on taxpayers & parents that you mentioned) that currently funds local public education. If that takes hold here in SD - and whatever other incentives allowed for school choice - it will set more free to make the right choices for their kids & particular circumstances. It's just a matter of time. 🙂
I see no reason why kids need to continue with school past 8th grade. School should not start until they are 7 or 8 and only go until they are maybe 14-16 yrs old. And only 6 months a year. It should be 4 hrs a day at most and only teach basic math , reading and writing, anything more than that they can go to a higher education institute like college. I remember and use almost nothing I learned in school. Other than those 3 main things. It was a huge waste of time, tax payers dollars and my childhood. This country was better off when kids stayed home and learned at home with a parent rather then started going to government indoctrination day camps we call school all the time.
I employed several highschoolers full-time in the summer and after school during the school year. When I asked them what they have learned that day, all they can say is their teacher gave them a couple worksheets to fill out then the teacher stared at the computer for the rest of the class time. Public education definitely needs a real overhaul. It will only take smart and responsible business people like an Elon Musk type to cut through the nonsense, fire worthless administrators, and hold the parents to account for their children not going to school. You have lazy parents, too much technology, bureaucracy that only serves itself, underperforming teachers, and a progressive mindset steering it all into the gutter. Government backed Student loans only prolong the problem into the college years and enslaving the students to years worth of debt with no skills, drive, or knowledge to pay it off.
Your snarky comments don't encourage students to attend school. With "marketers" like you, you can be assured more kids will be absent. When some absent kid sticks you up when he should be in school, pat yourself on the back. You've done a great job of encouraging that student to go to school to learn.
What we need are adults who don't continually tell students that that school doesn't matter. You are NOT a responsible adult. Yeah, schools can do better, but it takes responsible adults to do something, not carp.
The change from middle school to high school is a time when kids tend to fall behind and start missing school. There tends to be a dip in the academic performance of many students, even if they don't miss a lot of school. There is something about middle school that needs adjusting.
When I was on the school board in Rapid City, we faced similar numbers and did a number of things to change. We "cored" 9th grade, putting required classes, like English and math, in the morning, since parents often made sure kids got to school in the morning, but they would disappear during lunch. As much as we could we put the elective courses in the afternoon, so that kids would hang around after lunch.
Next we closed lunch. You could earn your way out of mandatory school lunch by good attendance and good grades. To make lunch more enticing, we changed the food choices kids had to make sure they would want to hang around for tacos or pizza.
We encouraged more Native programming , such as a drum group, and powwow dancing.
for after school activities.
I know at my daughter's elementary school the PTO and school staff developed a Chili and Bingo Night, which attracted a lot of Native families. Finding ways to getting families engaged in school is a cheap way to make kids feel school matters.
These are relatively cheap fixes that can make a difference. Continual carping doesn't do anything to solve a problem.
Why would kids be truant for 1/2 a day? Well, I'll tell you, but it's usually a mix of a
number of issues. A big reason is because they are kids, and don't think about their future.
They see "home schooled' friends running the streets. Home schools have little if any oversight. Most are legitimate. Some are just excuses for truancy. Kids take notice.
Kids see parents not caring, or parents whose work schedules leave them little ability to make sure kids get to or stay in school.
They see lax enforcement of truancy laws.
Mostly, they see their friends skipping, and they decide to skip one time. And then it becomes the thing to do.
As I pointed out, there are ways to schedule the school day to encourage students to stay in school and not leave at lunchtime.
Some kids need a different approach to learning that is hard to do in a large classroom.
Some kids fall behind and lose confidence in themselves.
Some kids are bullied or made fun of, or feel like they don't matter.
I always find it interesting when people blame home school students. I have experienced home school, public school, and private school. Each has issues. I can tell you that the academic level and critical thinking skills of home schooled children is often highly advanced compared to other systems. And I can personally attest that there is a tremendous amount of wasted time in the public system. My public school writing instruction was so poor (and I was in advanced classes), I did not learn to write until I was in the workplace and had to do so. I can't even begin to calculate how much time I wasted in school (I attended public school K-12). Probably well over 1/2 the time I was there. If other people have other experiences, it would be good to hear about them.
As I said, most home schools are likely fine, just as most public and most private schools are fine. There is a problem, though, when there is an insistence by home schools and a few private schools that they get to skip testing to make sure students are making progress. As a school board, we had to vote to let students out of public schools. There was no accountability for home schools. It was mandatory if the parents said they wanted to home school their children. No accountability. A number of these kids were chronic truants who ran the streets. Tell me about wasting time. You can tell me all you want about how great home schools are, but that and 50 cents won't buy you a Rapid City Journal.
We all can have complaints about what we did and didn't get taught in school. One thing I never saw was wasted time, except in art class, because I behaved badly and got stuck out in the hall or the principals office. The wasted time was my fault, not the school's fault. And that's true for most kids who waste time.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but that was a bit of a strong statement. Have you actually worked in home school, private school, and public school settings? While I don't know everything, I have experience with home school and private school settings and attended public school K-12. I agree there are problems everywhere, but don't agree that a few wayward home school kids are doing anything to performance of the public school system as a whole. Sadly, the public system appears to be completely broken. And most private schools use the same public school curriculum and credentialing so they face the same issues, just have a different student population. I was involved with a system that did it's own credentialing and curriculum development. That allowed some innovative thinking. Good results. Sadly, regulation and group think create a lot of issues. When we have this many people "opting out" it appears we have a problem. Maybe we need to completely rethink the model and allow people who do not want to participate a way out. Not everyone needs to be in college. My electrician is less than 30 and makes almost $150K.
Greetings Don. The thing that really saved me was 6 grades of country school where I was immersed with 1-8th grade. There was seldom a moment of boredom or restraint required with the competitive nature chasing adults in my mind. You are right in so many ways. People like you are no longer part of the solution in so many areas.
I agree that we need to stop lowering the bar for education expectations. I put most of the blame on parents who don't teach their kids about the importance of education and respecting teachers and behaving in class. I worked in a local high school for many years and teachers are exhausted by trying to keep their kids on task. Many are distracted, noisy and disrespectful which makes it hard for other kids to learn. We have some really great teachers in this state but we lose many because of the low pay and disrespect they get from too many people. We need smaller class sizes and being able to remove disrespectful kids (one reason private schools have better results - they don't have to take everyone)
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" - basically becomes "You can take a kid to school but you can't make them learn" They have to WANT to learn and unfortunately too many don't.
Because the "education" they receive is not important. It is just mind numbing and training for them to be adults at a mind numbing job for the rest of their life, paying taxes. Tax cattle is all the education system is training us to be. The best of the best mindless zombie workers. They do not need MORE education, they need more time at home with a parent being kids.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think, SFmama. It is a curse to put biology in front of a carpenter, welder, truck driver, plumber or a future IT manager for Boeing. Let those children have a voice in their education.
Education starts in the home - if there is a problem in the education system, then there are already way too many problems in the home. At that point, I am left wonder just how effective our churches have been in focusing on and maintaining the family unit. Still that's all external - until parents take responsibility AND accountability for the education of their children, then God help the child that wants to be properly educated as their parents, church, and community have already failed them.
Is it possible that the parents are telling us they don't value education. If they don't value it, why are we forcing it on them and their kids? Many states used to have compulsory education through 8th grade. Is that a viable option now? Something else?
keyword: value... given SD is mostly ranching and farming, how do you sell algebra, calculus, history, etc to kids that are cleaning out stalls and driving tractors? Granted, learning U.S. History, Civics, Earth Science, as well are reading programs are necessary whether they like it or not. Now, is it forcing? Or is it molding their kids for a better future? Education is a seed; keep planting the wrong seeds or even the incorrect seeds, and it will only be one generation before things fall apart. I had compulsory education until 12th grade - and I lived... Attitude about education is just as important as the quality of education. I learned algebra or calculus but never used it until much later - its called delayed gratification. We have to have a vision of what we want the community to be like otherwise we are forfeiting education to feelings rather than building a community for a future.
Perhaps we should all talk with young people who has been through the system recently. The complaints about being told how to think and what to think seem to be universal, even in math and science classes. Maybe we need to go back to the basics and forget all the political stuff (history, mind-control science, humanities, math problems that have a political bent, etc.) and just teach reading, writing, math, and science principles. That way there would be plenty of time to learn those subjects cold without having kids tune out.
with young people who has been through > *have :-)
Math and science versus true math and true science as I have heard the dumbest things and ways to do things with both - which means someone ways trying to normalize weirdness. With true math and science, you ARE told what to think - if they don't like it, then they can counter it, but good luck with that, as both have been developing since Archimedes. Or maybe I misunderstood what you are trying to convey?
You're on the right track -- the 'political stuff' belongs ONLY in political science, not the natural sciences, philosophy, learning how to speak proper English, classical literature, I believe you know what I mean,
Sorry poor choice of words. Science that is science. And if the scientific formula doesn't hold in some conditions it should be noted that the model may be wrong (and it is an opportunity for people to refine the model).
I've learned many will twist anything to their liking (not you, of course). You are still on the mark - classic education needs to make a come back as the last 50, 60+ years have proven what has been removed needs to return - SOON!
Interesting story. I recently listened to a school worker tell me what is going on in classrooms.
Many kids do not sit in desks. They lay on the floor, some have their backs on the floor and they feet on the walls. There is no order.
They have their phones in class, although told to shut them off when the teacher is talking. They have earpods in their ears to listen to music.
The teachers do not enforce rules and don't care.
The parents are more of a problem than the kids. School is out of control.
It's no wonder they are not learning a thing in school.
The teachers dress like the kids, very tight leggings, and they look terrible.
I don't know where one would start to clean up this disorder.
And the school board does the hiring - no supt or principal is allowed in the hiring process.
I spoke to a couple business owners in town. They try to hire high schoolers to work and are beyond frustrated. They don't understand the concept of "work." They play with their phones and huddle together and visit. The cannot count change, cannot comprehend, to name a couple.
'And the school board does the hiring - no supt or principal is allowed in the hiring process.'
The school board hires the Superintendent and may have input into some other administrative positions. When you say they "hire," they take the recommendations of administrators and vote on a list of teachers and others that the administration recommends. The administration gathers all of the applications, does any background checking, selects the candidates they interview, and selects the person they want to hire. The school board members generally have no say and do not participate in this. After the administrators determine who they want to hire, the Superintendent submits those names on to the school board for a public vote It is rare that a school board would not accept the hiring decisions of administrators.
I need to amend my comment about your post being snarky. There are some interesting questions in with the snark.
(1) "If that many kids are 'opting out”' (absent or disconnected when present), maybe we need to rethink what we are offering and how it is presented."
I'd say yes, but some stuff is always going to be boring to someone. History is such an interesting subject, but it is so often boiled down into rah-rah and dates, not personalities, conflicts and ideas. Math can be very interesting or very boring, depending on how it is taught. I thought English was boring until we started reading Shakespeare. When you have to act out the lines is where it comes alive.
(2) "What happens if kids don’t get a full K-12 education?"
I'd say 99 percent are destined for a lot of difficulties in life, and many probably end up doing some time locked up. I never worry too much about the drop out rate, as long as the drop back in rate is right up there with it. The larger districts have great alternative programs for kids that don't fit in the standard classroom, or who have dropped out, but want back in. I'm a strong believer in technical education and apprenticeships, but get that high school education first.
(3) "Is part of the problem that we have so heavily restricted what young people do and say that school is no longer fun."
Other than some kids who bully, kids don't have this problem. It's the adults that do. They are the ones wanting to restrict discussions, ban books and force their religion on kids. Governor Noem was a big believer in making school boring. I mean she wanted to foist the Hillsdale curriculum on South Dakota kids, as if learning about the Peloponnesian War in Kindergarten was going to be the height of fun.
(4) " Also, why is it bad to discuss race and ethnicity?" and "Why is it so bad to talk about why there is gender dysphoria."
It isn't, but it has to be done with sensitivity and in age-appropriate discussions.
(5) "If school is just about control, it is no wonder so many kids have checked out. School isn’t challenging their minds and it isn’t engaging or interesting.'
In school and in families you learn self-control, which is required of a responsible adult. Not everything in life is going to be exciting or interesting. For some subjects, like spelling, you have to slog through it to gain the appropriate knowledge to read and understand the interesting and exciting stuff. That takes self-discipline and self-control. It's like in any sport, first you gain skills through endless repetition, then you make logo threes.
Right. My wife was home with the kids, we did without because kids do not need stuff, they need and deserve their parents and a stable home. I worked at a youth center and you could tell the kids that had parents at home, they were calmer and easy to talk to. Kids that were tossed from ne place with strangers to another were always more aggressive and had a hard time getting along.
Thank you for sharing that perspective. I think the problem is many young people were lured into the college debt game and both parents have to work to make the payments. Not having choices is very sad.
Some students are so acclimated to relying on their parents for everything that they don't realize that the time will come when they need to provide for themselves. The parents baby the kids, enabling them to not accept responsibility. The kids don't work jobs. They're not being prepared by their parents to become self-supporting adults. They aren't taught the need to plan and that actions have consequences. Parents need to motivate their children to work and succeed.
Thank you for the article SD Voice. John Taylor Gatto, former longtime teacher from NYC, (d. 2018) wrote volumes about why kids are checked out (his Ch. 13 titled The Empty Child in The Underground History of American Public Education should be required reading) but he eventually came to reject all of it and wrote many books and gave lectures all over the country on why compulsory education fits more statist & corporate interests, not those of parents or community. Here's some of his books for those interested: A Different Kind of Teacher, The Exhausted School, Dumbing Us Down, Weapons of Mass Instruction, and The Underground History of American Education.
I appreciate your input, and information. I've actually read two of J.T.G.'s books, and he offered some interesting insight. If you're familiar with FOIA, or if you're interested in using FOIA, you might be alarmed by what you'll find. Based on the information I've received, and there's a lot, it is clear that public schools aren't using the taxpayer funded income in a logical manner. When you filter through Standardized Test results, for individual, and/or district schools, it often doesn't make sense. When a specific school produces low scores in one, or more, academic field, logic should dictate that those schools would, or should, use a calculable percentage of their funding, for the following year, in ways that could increase their scores. In most cases, that's not what I've found. In many cases, I found that there was no additional funds, or redirected funds, that went towards anything that would raise those scores. If a school scores low on math, for example, why would they decide to increase funds towards things like art, for example, instead of math. When you look at breakdowns of allocations, and see that pattern, more times than not, it starts to become clear. I'm all for things like art, music, or many other non-academic studies, but not at the expense of academics. While some may go on to have successful careers in things like art, or music, most don't, or won't. There's an old saying, "The devil is in the details.". And no. I'm not making a religious reference. I'm just using an old saying to point out that there's a problem with how funds are being allocated without logic.
Thank you for the information Milo. Not too surprised. I spent my career there working at all levels, including the Dept of Ed in Pierre in early 90s; it's a system that probably is designed, by virtue of all the regulatory & political demands upon it - to ultimately fail, unfortunately. There may be some bright spots here and there, incl the sports and extra curricula that keeps them coming thru the door, but overall it's a sinking ship. It's the system I'm talking about and sometimes it gets conflated to "but my school..." Parents & Community have to rescue it from the professional class like they are doing currently in every other area of life as well. I'm still not sure what RFK is all about. I want to be hopeful. But his comment still holds that "the only thing standing between a child and a corrupt government is a parent". More and more parents are seeing the light and are in a rescue operation as they awaken to the research - and it's readily available.
It seems like another case of government spending that creates even more government spending. My question is simple. Why can't the seemingly bottomless money pit that is our current failing education system, be converted into a system that allows children to be home schooled?? Perhaps, instead of the taxation strangle hold on parents, which is a big reason why both parents need to work full time jobs, we could reduce taxation by wasting less tax dollars on a clearly failing system. If my home were on fire, but my only means of putting out that fire was a small trickle of water, and a tiny sewing thimble, at what point should I abandon the possibility of extinguishing the blazing inferno?? Using congressional logic, I should quickly order more thimbles, and hope that they arrive before the fire has completely consumed my home. Lol.
I think we'll get there. Florida and a few other states are now looking at eliminating the portion of property taxes (that taxation strangle hold on taxpayers & parents that you mentioned) that currently funds local public education. If that takes hold here in SD - and whatever other incentives allowed for school choice - it will set more free to make the right choices for their kids & particular circumstances. It's just a matter of time. 🙂
Here's John Taylor Gatto giving an 8 minute talk titled state controlled consciousness.
https://youtu.be/8ogCc8ObiwQ?si=PplZQuYkHEZ_kxnQ
I see no reason why kids need to continue with school past 8th grade. School should not start until they are 7 or 8 and only go until they are maybe 14-16 yrs old. And only 6 months a year. It should be 4 hrs a day at most and only teach basic math , reading and writing, anything more than that they can go to a higher education institute like college. I remember and use almost nothing I learned in school. Other than those 3 main things. It was a huge waste of time, tax payers dollars and my childhood. This country was better off when kids stayed home and learned at home with a parent rather then started going to government indoctrination day camps we call school all the time.
Thank you for sharing this perspective.
And then there are the kids, like I was. https://www.facebook.com/reel/1054643003350003/?s=single_unit&__cft__[0]=AZXTDi-ANh7ecUOzcRrWWWlhU5PkHq_TG4dJsC66o51gwnTPaEnmrjoDUczGYJodXkwDmxXGSUfLCTwb_Yj8DDDGcee8Yr29MSBVlhEVEKg2CU96MA58uzTHXDGeB5OgtBcqPufIdI6ZAmCJPreUJA7aQ-RnjgF7GxIwDIH9Qt1OeXaB3eF2RK8U0zlAxaKBxac&__tn__=H-R
I employed several highschoolers full-time in the summer and after school during the school year. When I asked them what they have learned that day, all they can say is their teacher gave them a couple worksheets to fill out then the teacher stared at the computer for the rest of the class time. Public education definitely needs a real overhaul. It will only take smart and responsible business people like an Elon Musk type to cut through the nonsense, fire worthless administrators, and hold the parents to account for their children not going to school. You have lazy parents, too much technology, bureaucracy that only serves itself, underperforming teachers, and a progressive mindset steering it all into the gutter. Government backed Student loans only prolong the problem into the college years and enslaving the students to years worth of debt with no skills, drive, or knowledge to pay it off.
Wow! A few worksheets? That does seem to be a waste of time.
Your snarky comments don't encourage students to attend school. With "marketers" like you, you can be assured more kids will be absent. When some absent kid sticks you up when he should be in school, pat yourself on the back. You've done a great job of encouraging that student to go to school to learn.
What we need are adults who don't continually tell students that that school doesn't matter. You are NOT a responsible adult. Yeah, schools can do better, but it takes responsible adults to do something, not carp.
The change from middle school to high school is a time when kids tend to fall behind and start missing school. There tends to be a dip in the academic performance of many students, even if they don't miss a lot of school. There is something about middle school that needs adjusting.
When I was on the school board in Rapid City, we faced similar numbers and did a number of things to change. We "cored" 9th grade, putting required classes, like English and math, in the morning, since parents often made sure kids got to school in the morning, but they would disappear during lunch. As much as we could we put the elective courses in the afternoon, so that kids would hang around after lunch.
Next we closed lunch. You could earn your way out of mandatory school lunch by good attendance and good grades. To make lunch more enticing, we changed the food choices kids had to make sure they would want to hang around for tacos or pizza.
We encouraged more Native programming , such as a drum group, and powwow dancing.
for after school activities.
I know at my daughter's elementary school the PTO and school staff developed a Chili and Bingo Night, which attracted a lot of Native families. Finding ways to getting families engaged in school is a cheap way to make kids feel school matters.
These are relatively cheap fixes that can make a difference. Continual carping doesn't do anything to solve a problem.
Don, why would kids be truant for 1/2 the day if they really wanted to be there? It sort of seems like you are proving the author's argument?
Why would kids be truant for 1/2 a day? Well, I'll tell you, but it's usually a mix of a
number of issues. A big reason is because they are kids, and don't think about their future.
They see "home schooled' friends running the streets. Home schools have little if any oversight. Most are legitimate. Some are just excuses for truancy. Kids take notice.
Kids see parents not caring, or parents whose work schedules leave them little ability to make sure kids get to or stay in school.
They see lax enforcement of truancy laws.
Mostly, they see their friends skipping, and they decide to skip one time. And then it becomes the thing to do.
As I pointed out, there are ways to schedule the school day to encourage students to stay in school and not leave at lunchtime.
Some kids need a different approach to learning that is hard to do in a large classroom.
Some kids fall behind and lose confidence in themselves.
Some kids are bullied or made fun of, or feel like they don't matter.
I always find it interesting when people blame home school students. I have experienced home school, public school, and private school. Each has issues. I can tell you that the academic level and critical thinking skills of home schooled children is often highly advanced compared to other systems. And I can personally attest that there is a tremendous amount of wasted time in the public system. My public school writing instruction was so poor (and I was in advanced classes), I did not learn to write until I was in the workplace and had to do so. I can't even begin to calculate how much time I wasted in school (I attended public school K-12). Probably well over 1/2 the time I was there. If other people have other experiences, it would be good to hear about them.
As I said, most home schools are likely fine, just as most public and most private schools are fine. There is a problem, though, when there is an insistence by home schools and a few private schools that they get to skip testing to make sure students are making progress. As a school board, we had to vote to let students out of public schools. There was no accountability for home schools. It was mandatory if the parents said they wanted to home school their children. No accountability. A number of these kids were chronic truants who ran the streets. Tell me about wasting time. You can tell me all you want about how great home schools are, but that and 50 cents won't buy you a Rapid City Journal.
We all can have complaints about what we did and didn't get taught in school. One thing I never saw was wasted time, except in art class, because I behaved badly and got stuck out in the hall or the principals office. The wasted time was my fault, not the school's fault. And that's true for most kids who waste time.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but that was a bit of a strong statement. Have you actually worked in home school, private school, and public school settings? While I don't know everything, I have experience with home school and private school settings and attended public school K-12. I agree there are problems everywhere, but don't agree that a few wayward home school kids are doing anything to performance of the public school system as a whole. Sadly, the public system appears to be completely broken. And most private schools use the same public school curriculum and credentialing so they face the same issues, just have a different student population. I was involved with a system that did it's own credentialing and curriculum development. That allowed some innovative thinking. Good results. Sadly, regulation and group think create a lot of issues. When we have this many people "opting out" it appears we have a problem. Maybe we need to completely rethink the model and allow people who do not want to participate a way out. Not everyone needs to be in college. My electrician is less than 30 and makes almost $150K.
Greetings Don. The thing that really saved me was 6 grades of country school where I was immersed with 1-8th grade. There was seldom a moment of boredom or restraint required with the competitive nature chasing adults in my mind. You are right in so many ways. People like you are no longer part of the solution in so many areas.
There is so much thought-provoking content in this article, we should all be required to pay $100 to read it.
I agree that we need to stop lowering the bar for education expectations. I put most of the blame on parents who don't teach their kids about the importance of education and respecting teachers and behaving in class. I worked in a local high school for many years and teachers are exhausted by trying to keep their kids on task. Many are distracted, noisy and disrespectful which makes it hard for other kids to learn. We have some really great teachers in this state but we lose many because of the low pay and disrespect they get from too many people. We need smaller class sizes and being able to remove disrespectful kids (one reason private schools have better results - they don't have to take everyone)
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" - basically becomes "You can take a kid to school but you can't make them learn" They have to WANT to learn and unfortunately too many don't.
Because the "education" they receive is not important. It is just mind numbing and training for them to be adults at a mind numbing job for the rest of their life, paying taxes. Tax cattle is all the education system is training us to be. The best of the best mindless zombie workers. They do not need MORE education, they need more time at home with a parent being kids.
What type of education do you think kids need to have a fulfilled life?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think, SFmama. It is a curse to put biology in front of a carpenter, welder, truck driver, plumber or a future IT manager for Boeing. Let those children have a voice in their education.
Education starts in the home - if there is a problem in the education system, then there are already way too many problems in the home. At that point, I am left wonder just how effective our churches have been in focusing on and maintaining the family unit. Still that's all external - until parents take responsibility AND accountability for the education of their children, then God help the child that wants to be properly educated as their parents, church, and community have already failed them.
Is it possible that the parents are telling us they don't value education. If they don't value it, why are we forcing it on them and their kids? Many states used to have compulsory education through 8th grade. Is that a viable option now? Something else?
keyword: value... given SD is mostly ranching and farming, how do you sell algebra, calculus, history, etc to kids that are cleaning out stalls and driving tractors? Granted, learning U.S. History, Civics, Earth Science, as well are reading programs are necessary whether they like it or not. Now, is it forcing? Or is it molding their kids for a better future? Education is a seed; keep planting the wrong seeds or even the incorrect seeds, and it will only be one generation before things fall apart. I had compulsory education until 12th grade - and I lived... Attitude about education is just as important as the quality of education. I learned algebra or calculus but never used it until much later - its called delayed gratification. We have to have a vision of what we want the community to be like otherwise we are forfeiting education to feelings rather than building a community for a future.
Perhaps we should all talk with young people who has been through the system recently. The complaints about being told how to think and what to think seem to be universal, even in math and science classes. Maybe we need to go back to the basics and forget all the political stuff (history, mind-control science, humanities, math problems that have a political bent, etc.) and just teach reading, writing, math, and science principles. That way there would be plenty of time to learn those subjects cold without having kids tune out.
with young people who has been through > *have :-)
Math and science versus true math and true science as I have heard the dumbest things and ways to do things with both - which means someone ways trying to normalize weirdness. With true math and science, you ARE told what to think - if they don't like it, then they can counter it, but good luck with that, as both have been developing since Archimedes. Or maybe I misunderstood what you are trying to convey?
You're on the right track -- the 'political stuff' belongs ONLY in political science, not the natural sciences, philosophy, learning how to speak proper English, classical literature, I believe you know what I mean,
Sorry poor choice of words. Science that is science. And if the scientific formula doesn't hold in some conditions it should be noted that the model may be wrong (and it is an opportunity for people to refine the model).
I've learned many will twist anything to their liking (not you, of course). You are still on the mark - classic education needs to make a come back as the last 50, 60+ years have proven what has been removed needs to return - SOON!
Interesting story. I recently listened to a school worker tell me what is going on in classrooms.
Many kids do not sit in desks. They lay on the floor, some have their backs on the floor and they feet on the walls. There is no order.
They have their phones in class, although told to shut them off when the teacher is talking. They have earpods in their ears to listen to music.
The teachers do not enforce rules and don't care.
The parents are more of a problem than the kids. School is out of control.
It's no wonder they are not learning a thing in school.
The teachers dress like the kids, very tight leggings, and they look terrible.
I don't know where one would start to clean up this disorder.
And the school board does the hiring - no supt or principal is allowed in the hiring process.
I spoke to a couple business owners in town. They try to hire high schoolers to work and are beyond frustrated. They don't understand the concept of "work." They play with their phones and huddle together and visit. The cannot count change, cannot comprehend, to name a couple.
'And the school board does the hiring - no supt or principal is allowed in the hiring process.'
The school board hires the Superintendent and may have input into some other administrative positions. When you say they "hire," they take the recommendations of administrators and vote on a list of teachers and others that the administration recommends. The administration gathers all of the applications, does any background checking, selects the candidates they interview, and selects the person they want to hire. The school board members generally have no say and do not participate in this. After the administrators determine who they want to hire, the Superintendent submits those names on to the school board for a public vote It is rare that a school board would not accept the hiring decisions of administrators.
I need to amend my comment about your post being snarky. There are some interesting questions in with the snark.
(1) "If that many kids are 'opting out”' (absent or disconnected when present), maybe we need to rethink what we are offering and how it is presented."
I'd say yes, but some stuff is always going to be boring to someone. History is such an interesting subject, but it is so often boiled down into rah-rah and dates, not personalities, conflicts and ideas. Math can be very interesting or very boring, depending on how it is taught. I thought English was boring until we started reading Shakespeare. When you have to act out the lines is where it comes alive.
(2) "What happens if kids don’t get a full K-12 education?"
I'd say 99 percent are destined for a lot of difficulties in life, and many probably end up doing some time locked up. I never worry too much about the drop out rate, as long as the drop back in rate is right up there with it. The larger districts have great alternative programs for kids that don't fit in the standard classroom, or who have dropped out, but want back in. I'm a strong believer in technical education and apprenticeships, but get that high school education first.
(3) "Is part of the problem that we have so heavily restricted what young people do and say that school is no longer fun."
Other than some kids who bully, kids don't have this problem. It's the adults that do. They are the ones wanting to restrict discussions, ban books and force their religion on kids. Governor Noem was a big believer in making school boring. I mean she wanted to foist the Hillsdale curriculum on South Dakota kids, as if learning about the Peloponnesian War in Kindergarten was going to be the height of fun.
(4) " Also, why is it bad to discuss race and ethnicity?" and "Why is it so bad to talk about why there is gender dysphoria."
It isn't, but it has to be done with sensitivity and in age-appropriate discussions.
(5) "If school is just about control, it is no wonder so many kids have checked out. School isn’t challenging their minds and it isn’t engaging or interesting.'
In school and in families you learn self-control, which is required of a responsible adult. Not everything in life is going to be exciting or interesting. For some subjects, like spelling, you have to slog through it to gain the appropriate knowledge to read and understand the interesting and exciting stuff. That takes self-discipline and self-control. It's like in any sport, first you gain skills through endless repetition, then you make logo threes.
It is not just the failed education system, it is also parents. After all who has had them for more time the parents or the school?
That is in an interesting question. When both parents work, many kids spend more time with people who are not family members.
Right. My wife was home with the kids, we did without because kids do not need stuff, they need and deserve their parents and a stable home. I worked at a youth center and you could tell the kids that had parents at home, they were calmer and easy to talk to. Kids that were tossed from ne place with strangers to another were always more aggressive and had a hard time getting along.
Thank you for sharing that perspective. I think the problem is many young people were lured into the college debt game and both parents have to work to make the payments. Not having choices is very sad.
Some students are so acclimated to relying on their parents for everything that they don't realize that the time will come when they need to provide for themselves. The parents baby the kids, enabling them to not accept responsibility. The kids don't work jobs. They're not being prepared by their parents to become self-supporting adults. They aren't taught the need to plan and that actions have consequences. Parents need to motivate their children to work and succeed.
How does the independence component work? Should they spend less time at school and more time with their parents and at a job?